 Pshb And What's Going On., I think you're in for a good read |
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 Jul 25 2004, 11:01 AM
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 aka Elven Thief (ex. NS Programmer)  Group: Retired Developer Posts: 927 Joined: 15-November 02 From: Madison, Wisconsin Member No.: 8,754  |
[BIGGEST EDIT EVER] Valve has fixed the bug. It should be updated to Steam sometime soon, according to the email. GG on this one, everyone. [Back to original post] I talked with Nemesis Zero, and although he offered to announce what was going on, I took it upon myself to update you guys. So, at this point, I'm sure a lot of you are imagining "What is going on with PHSB?" and, "Is it fixed in beta 5?" The short of it is, we have discovered a lot more than we imagined about the Player Specific Hitbox Bug. As of right now, it is not fixed and with a bit of reason. Here's the long of it: Firstly, thanks needs to be extended to the community for putting such an effort into tracking down this bug and finding a surefire way of reproducing it. For those who aren't familiar with the PSHB, it's a bug that affects player #N on a #N player server. For instance, if you're on a 10 player server and type "status" in your console, you'll find that player 10 will be harder to kill, seem invincible, or completely own you and never seem to die. At first, I thought, perhaps it was some kind of issue where bullets weren't counting or an invulnerability or some kind of weird error was going on. Turns out, it was a weird error. You CAN kill a bugged player, but there's a trick to it. If a bugged player is moving, the model you see on your screen is not the model that the server is seeing. Ironically, if a spectator is 1st person viewing you shooting at a bugged player, he will see what the server is seeing. Screenshots and examples Here I am, shooting a "bugged" TyrNemesis. This is a 2 player max server and he is number 2. He is also strafing in each picture, as if he's not moving, he takes damage like the rest of us. In the first 2 shots, I am shooting directly at the model I see (which is not what the server sees). Additionally, my view will render my bullets hitting the fade model and will not show bullet decals on the walls behind. If another player was watching me shoot at the fade, it would look like I was just shooting behind him. The 3rd party would also see sparks, bullet decals, and wonder where the hell I learned to aim (I'd tell em counter-strike - jk).  Here's another picture. You will notice in each picture, that there are no bullet holes behind the fade and that my bullets do render as if they're hitting the fade. There's just no blood.  Essentially, what the client is seeing is not what the server believes to be true. A listenserver or 1st person spectator does not seem to have this problem. Now... to kill a bugged player, you just have to lead a bit - A 3rd party onlooker would see me aiming directly at the fade and all my bullets hitting. At the same time, my rendering will show bullet decals on the wall and sparks, BUT it will also show blood, confirming I have actually hit our bugged player.  This is also hitting the "bugged' fade.  RIP AND TEAR  AND YOU WONDERED WHERE THE SPARKS BUG CAME FROM - example 4  So, now you say "Yes Thief. Now we know what the bug does, what did you do to fix it?" Firstly, I scanned the crap out of the NS code for anything that would signify rendering a player different, based on being in the last slot on a server. Of course, I found nothing (OMG! what a nub). However, thanks to the diligence of Grepdashv, Ari, and TyrNemesis, we came up with a little more shocking information... Uh Oh This bug exists in every Half-Life mod. That's right. We've managed to reproduce it in Counter-Strike(1.6 and 1.5), DoD, NS, and even Half-Life Death Match. Also have managed to reproduce it on both Steam and Won versions of Half-life, CS and even NS. Me and Grep have some demos from on HLDM and CounterStike and successfully reproduced the bug there. Here's a pic Grep compiled from split second screenshots where he is shooting me with a gauss gun by aiming in front of my model - you'll see that the client registers the bounced beam effect like it completely missed me, but there is also blood, as the server has registered a hit and told the client to render it. The corpse in the background is from a previous attempt. This shot gibbed me.  Now, you've gotta be asking - "how in the world has this never been figured out?" Well... there are some suspicions going around, and other people have noticed it in TFC, as from this "bug report" on the Steam Forums Link Here Do a ctrl-f for "hitbox" and you'll find that even TFC gets a "bugged" player that they have to aim in front of to kill. It just appears that the reasoning and way of reproducing it wasn't figured out. Here's a direct quote:
Additionally, most other mods don't have players that move as fast as our players do (especially aliens). The disparity between what the server knows and what the client sees is proportional to the speed of the player moving. A blinking fade or flying lerk are damn near impossible to lead to deal any damage. Also keep in mind that for the longest time, the bug was blamed on lag or poor aim. That and a specator seems to see the correct placement of the model, so if you're spectating a guy shooting a bugged player, you'll just assume their aim sucks. At this point, Ari and myself have already posted on the Half-Life coder's mailing, which many Valve employees do read. Unfortunately, at this moment, we do NOT have a fix for beta 5, as you can probably guess, as this appears to be engine related and affects every Half-Life mod. Or it's a bug that exists in every mod from same usage of the same SDK (I can't find evidence supporting this). There's a strong chance that Valve is going to see this and read it, and hell, the more publicity,the better chances of getting a fix out there. Voogru has already started attempting work arounds for the last player to see what he can get fixed on the client rendering, but at the moment, we're at an impasse. I just want to say thanks to the community for all the assistance in attempting to get this bug fixed (especially Saraph, for helping us track the specifics of this bug when our understanding of it was in its infancy, and to Head Crab and Alpha of [C.A.P] For realizing the cause of the bug) I just feel everyone deserved to be "in the know" now, as it were. [EDIT] - Here's another update. Since I've posted this, there seems to be a lot of debate about whether this bug does exist. Some think it's nothing more than a rate or ex_interp change/bug/hack. While I would buy that, I defend my case as any such change or bug would have to have a uniform effect, no matter what slot on the server you get. However, a client with the same rate settings in slot 15 of 16 will not have the same problem getting shot as a client in slot 16 of 16. There is no logic in blaming it on rates. [Big Edit 2] There seems to be a general consensus that I've failed to put credit where credit is due. I named Seraph, Head Crab and Alpha above already as they spearheaded the search to find a way to reproduce the bug (I used Seraph instead of Sarisel - his forum name - as I had talked with Firewater on irc before and that's the name that stuck.) At the time that I joined the ns dev team as a coder - about 3 weeks ago, this was the first bug I wanted to tackle. I don't know all the politics behind finding the bug, as work had made my playtesting duties wane a bit. I was given Sarisel's document that had been sent to Flayra and went from there. By that time I got Grep, Ari, Tyr and a variety of playtesters to constantly playtest and we were trying to find varients of ways to make it show or not show - this led to the weird spectator issues. This is where I spent most of the work and it all ended up 2 nights ago with us reproducing on every mod that we could get to run on a dedicated server. This entire post was meant to be informative, and not to take credit. Take it as you will. This post has been edited by E-Th33ph: Jul 27 2004, 06:40 AM -------------------- [C*B] Elven Thief / [CB]Elven_Thief on irc.gamesurge.net
Rocking the Gentoo Linux. Hunt me down on irc if you need help with it. |
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Jul 25 2004, 11:14 AM
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 Dark Minion  Group: Members Posts: 432 Joined: 25-September 03 From: Houston, TX Member No.: 21,205 |
Hmm...looks like the game isn't applying lag compensation to attacks against the last player. This could be verified if this effect doesn't show up on a LAN.
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Jul 25 2004, 11:16 AM
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#3
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aka Elven Thief (ex. NS Programmer) Group: Retired Developer Posts: 927 Joined: 15-November 02 From: Madison, Wisconsin Member No.: 8,754 |
Grep has corrected me. Lag does play a factor, but ever so slight. The better connection you have, the closer you will be to what the server sees. However, you will still have offset hitboxes, whereas you won't have offset hitboxes on any other players, no matter where you see the model. Additionally:
This post has been edited by E-Th33ph: Jul 25 2004, 11:36 AM -------------------- [C*B] Elven Thief / [CB]Elven_Thief on irc.gamesurge.net
Rocking the Gentoo Linux. Hunt me down on irc if you need help with it. |
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Jul 25 2004, 11:17 AM
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#4
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 Kill'em all, baby! Group: Members Posts: 4,168 Joined: 22-September 03 From: Louisville Kentucky Member No.: 21,094 |
RIP AND TEAR YOUR GUTS  nice read 
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Jul 25 2004, 11:20 AM
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#5
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Minion  Group: Constellation Posts: 260 Joined: 20-January 03 Member No.: 12,522 |
Wahoo, yet another excuse to explain why VALVe suck
(check the recent CS bugs if you haven't been watching them appear)Thanks for the update, I can now go off at anyone blaming Flayra for the bug and start knocking VALVe as usual Baha |
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Jul 25 2004, 11:21 AM
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#6
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Foul Beast Group: Members Posts: 139 Joined: 16-December 03 From: England Member No.: 24,414 |
I've posted this on the DoD official forums for more publicity.
Good, diligent work from the people that reproduced this bug and tested it in other mods. -------------------- That's usefulness. That's awesome. That's.....the welder.
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Jul 25 2004, 11:30 AM
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 Fantastic Damage Group: Members Posts: 1,320 Joined: 28-November 03 From: Colorado Member No.: 23,697 |
Interesting.
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Jul 25 2004, 11:43 AM
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#8
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Foul Beast Group: Members Posts: 137 Joined: 2-September 02 Member No.: 1,263 |
Brilliant. I spent a long time trying to reproduce this in Science & Industry but gave in. I was of course testing on a listenserver which you said doesn't have the bug, so I guess that explains it. Thanks for the information, helps a lot.
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Jul 25 2004, 11:48 AM
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Sire Group: Members Posts: 3,133 Joined: 27-January 03 Member No.: 12,789 |
Excellent work. Good to know we have dedicated people trying to figure this bizzare bug out.
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Jul 25 2004, 12:14 PM
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 Drone Group: Members Posts: 48 Joined: 30-June 04 Member No.: 29,635 |
isnt the pshb a problem with steam? because i think its in a lot of games si, tfc, i ns, i think cs too
-------------------- #compromise-ns kthx
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Jul 25 2004, 12:18 PM
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#11
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 Foul Beast Group: Members Posts: 149 Joined: 25-February 03 Member No.: 13,954 |
No, he said he found the same problem on WON servers. Just takes a leet community like ns to find these long standing bugs. GJ guys. --------------------  |
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Jul 25 2004, 12:18 PM
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#12
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aka Elven Thief (ex. NS Programmer) Group: Retired Developer Posts: 927 Joined: 15-November 02 From: Madison, Wisconsin Member No.: 8,754 |
Nope. We've recreated it in CS 1.5 and HLDM on the Won Version of Half-Life as well as NS.
-------------------- [C*B] Elven Thief / [CB]Elven_Thief on irc.gamesurge.net
Rocking the Gentoo Linux. Hunt me down on irc if you need help with it. |
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Jul 25 2004, 12:19 PM
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#13
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 Dark Queen Group: Members Posts: 786 Joined: 9-November 02 Member No.: 7,801 |
This thread is sexy
 .
-------------------- The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government.
- Thomas Jefferson |
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Jul 25 2004, 12:21 PM
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 Minion Group: Constellation Posts: 358 Joined: 29-June 03 From: Melbourne, Australia Member No.: 17,776 |
its a half life thing obviously.
/me cant wait for hl2. --------------------   |
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Jul 25 2004, 12:37 PM
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Foul Beast Group: Members Posts: 137 Joined: 2-September 02 Member No.: 1,263 |
Sounds like theres a < being used instead of a <= within the sv_unlag code. This post has been edited by Vo0do0-MoNk3h: Jul 25 2004, 12:38 PM |
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Jul 25 2004, 12:40 PM
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#16
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Minion Group: Members Posts: 241 Joined: 7-August 03 Member No.: 19,163 |
wow, had know idea it was that bad. thanks for the read.
btw... does this mean we can have the update now? (he asks in a meak voice. dont hit me) or are there some other problems that need to be fixed first? |
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Jul 25 2004, 12:44 PM
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#17
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Hatchling Group: Members Posts: 4 Joined: 16-November 03 Member No.: 23,008 |
yeah that sounds like the most possible situation. Hope valve decide to haul some **** and fix it and use this magical steam thing they claim to have to deliver the fix to all of us .
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Jul 25 2004, 12:45 PM
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#18
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 trigger_CUT!  Group: Playtester Posts: 1,284 Joined: 17-September 03 From: Irvine, CA, USA Member No.: 20,942 |
I hope this isn't premature, but regardless, I think everyone wants to see it come true.
Congratulations to everyone involved in helping us bring this bug to the light of day. NS is truly a game about teamwork, and it's teamwork that's allowed us to make the progress we've made here. Much love to everyone out there, particularly Head Crab, Alpha, Saraph, grep, ari, Elven, voogru, KaiserRoll, Chimpzealot, JazzX, Yumosis, Magitek, myself, and everyone else that's made this possible. W00t! *edit: I made up a nice tombstone. It's up to valve to dig a nice, deep grave.* This post has been edited by TyrNemesis^: Jul 25 2004, 12:56 PM
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Jul 25 2004, 12:48 PM
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Foul Beast Group: Members Posts: 139 Joined: 16-December 03 From: England Member No.: 24,414 |
The ball is in Valve's court now. -------------------- That's usefulness. That's awesome. That's.....the welder.
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Jul 25 2004, 12:59 PM
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#20
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 Dark Queen Group: Members Posts: 665 Joined: 13-May 03 Member No.: 16,240 |
Lets all hope they fix it.
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